Welcome
Welcome to SuiJurisForum.com --- You are currently viewing our boards as a guest. Members of this FREE Community are able to gain access to write capabilities, private messaging, a chat room, extra forums, and more!

***If you decide to Join our FREE Community... then DON'T FORGET to PASS/SKIP the multiple ADVERTISEMENTS during Registration that ask for Phone Numbers!! ***

Just to Help You Out a Bit

Discuss anything about life situation.

Just to Help You Out a Bit

Postby palani » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:47 am

There are those who worry about signatures they made in the past. Those under the sign of a notary must be worried about to some extent but if you choose a notary above the age of 80 you won't have to worry about him for very long.

If you are ever placed in a setting where a form is brought up that some entity would like you to admit you signed ... and generally where your signature is the only one on the form ... the response should be (in any place or forum) ...

"I would be happy to comment on the authenticity of that signature as soon as (that paper) has been entered into evidence."

The trick here is that the person who signed the form or document is the ONLY one who can enter it into evidence. As soon as you admit your signature you are not attesting to just that but also the truth of what is on the form or letter. Now if you do that without examining it closely you might find staples have been removed or changes made by deletions or additions. Any change at all nullifies the signature.

Yours is the only signature. You are the only one who can enter a document into existence. By saying 'That is my signature' you actually bring the document to life .. you share some of your life force with it.
Make me one with everything.
-- Zen Master to the hot dog vendor
palani
Out of Commerce
 
Posts: 5664
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:46 am
Has thanked: 160 time
Have thanks: 465 time

 

Re: Just to Help You Out a Bit

Postby Jethro! » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:53 am

What about self-authenticating documents, such as certified copies of public records (e.g. Fed. Rules of Evidence, Rule 902)? Those documents -- so long as they are certified by the custodian of the records as true and correct -- that may bear "your signature" will be allowed into evidence.
Jethro!
Sui Juris Freeman
 
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:23 pm
Has thanked: 202 time
Have thanks: 168 time

Re: Just to Help You Out a Bit

Postby palani » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:37 pm

Jethro! wrote:What about self-authenticating documents, such as certified copies of public records (e.g. Fed. Rules of Evidence, Rule 902)? Those documents -- so long as they are certified by the custodian of the records as true and correct -- that may bear "your signature" will be allowed into evidence.


These are likely to be copies being certified to by the custodian. If you didn't sign the copy then you didn't sign what they are attempting to enter into evidence. If the copy is not a true and accurate document that you actually signed then so state (staples added or removed, recorder number or other additions or removals). Don't think you need to get into specifics. If there is a fly spec that wasn't on the document that you signed and there is one on the copy then don't go around bending over backward to help them out.
Make me one with everything.
-- Zen Master to the hot dog vendor
palani
Out of Commerce
 
Posts: 5664
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:46 am
Has thanked: 160 time
Have thanks: 465 time

Re: Just to Help You Out a Bit

Postby Jethro! » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:40 pm

palani wrote:
Jethro! wrote:What about self-authenticating documents, such as certified copies of public records (e.g. Fed. Rules of Evidence, Rule 902)? Those documents -- so long as they are certified by the custodian of the records as true and correct -- that may bear "your signature" will be allowed into evidence.


These are likely to be copies being certified to by the custodian. If you didn't sign the copy then you didn't sign what they are attempting to enter into evidence. If the copy is not a true and accurate document that you actually signed then so state (staples added or removed, recorder number or other additions or removals). Don't think you need to get into specifics. If there is a fly spec that wasn't on the document that you signed and there is one on the copy then don't go around bending over backward to help them out.


Here's the problem -- and let's use a real world example I've witnessed.

Say you were charged with "driving on a suspended license". But say your position/defense is that a charge is impossible because you've never had a license or applied for one. At trial the prosecution will call as a witness the custodian of records for the STATE'S driver license. On the stand they'll ask her to produce a certified copy of "your" driver license, complete with "your" signature on it. It will be admitted into evidence. If you object, your objection will be overruled (and the appellate court will also overrule your object). If you cross-examine her as to if she knows that's your signature, she'll say she doesn't know. But it won't matter -- it is still admissible under the Rules of Evidence for self-authenticating documents. She's just certifying it's a true and correct copy of the DL application.

So now what do you do? If you testify it's not your signature, ok -- but then you also waive your right to remain silent and are open to cross examination by the prosecution.
Jethro!
Sui Juris Freeman
 
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:23 pm
Has thanked: 202 time
Have thanks: 168 time

Re: Just to Help You Out a Bit

Postby palani » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:48 pm

Jethro! wrote:Say you were charged with "driving on a suspended license". ... So now what do you do?

"Objection your honor!!! The charge is driving on a SUSPENDED license. Does this custodian have a certified copy of the SUSPENDED license to present to this court?"
Make me one with everything.
-- Zen Master to the hot dog vendor
palani
Out of Commerce
 
Posts: 5664
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:46 am
Has thanked: 160 time
Have thanks: 465 time

Re: Just to Help You Out a Bit

Postby Jethro! » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:59 pm

palani wrote:
Jethro! wrote:Say you were charged with "driving on a suspended license". ... So now what do you do?

"Objection your honor!!! The charge is driving on a SUSPENDED license. Does this custodian have a certified copy of the SUSPENDED license to present to this court?"


"Objection overruled."

The same record will show that the license is suspended. It won't even say who suspended it, just that it is suspended. Doesn't matter -- still admissible evidence.

Now what?
Jethro!
Sui Juris Freeman
 
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:23 pm
Has thanked: 202 time
Have thanks: 168 time

Re: Just to Help You Out a Bit

Postby palani » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:59 pm

Jethro! wrote:The same record will show that the license is suspended. It won't even say who suspended it, just that it is suspended. Doesn't matter -- still admissible evidence.

Now what?


I would suspect the same authority that ISSUED the license has the authority to SUSPEND it.

Ask who signed the license and who therefore had issued the license. Ask if the same signature that had signed the license also was the same authority that had suspended it and ask to see a copy of THAT document.
Make me one with everything.
-- Zen Master to the hot dog vendor
palani
Out of Commerce
 
Posts: 5664
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:46 am
Has thanked: 160 time
Have thanks: 465 time

Re: Just to Help You Out a Bit

Postby Jethro! » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:10 pm

palani wrote:
Jethro! wrote:The same record will show that the license is suspended. It won't even say who suspended it, just that it is suspended. Doesn't matter -- still admissible evidence.

Now what?


I would suspect the same authority that ISSUED the license has the authority to SUSPEND it.

Ask who signed the license and who therefore had issued the license. Ask if the same signature that had signed the license also was the same authority that had suspended it and ask to see a copy of THAT document.


My guess is the witness would say she didn't know who suspended it and doesn't know anything about THAT document. So you'd still be in the same boat -- admissible evidence on the record of a "suspended license" with no evidence to the contrary (just argument, perhaps). Guess who will win?
Jethro!
Sui Juris Freeman
 
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:23 pm
Has thanked: 202 time
Have thanks: 168 time

Re: Just to Help You Out a Bit

Postby palani » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:15 pm

Jethro! wrote: So you'd still be in the same boat -- admissible evidence on the record of a "suspended license" with no evidence to the contrary (just argument, perhaps). Guess who will win?

Wrong. The evidence shows an UNSUSPENDED license.

As to winning ... if you were in a court of Law you would walk.... and that would be winning. In a court of EQUITY a win is a loss so you really do want to lose to stay in honor.
Make me one with everything.
-- Zen Master to the hot dog vendor
palani
Out of Commerce
 
Posts: 5664
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:46 am
Has thanked: 160 time
Have thanks: 465 time

Re: Just to Help You Out a Bit

Postby Jethro! » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:34 pm

palani wrote:
Jethro! wrote: So you'd still be in the same boat -- admissible evidence on the record of a "suspended license" with no evidence to the contrary (just argument, perhaps). Guess who will win?

Wrong. The evidence shows an UNSUSPENDED license.


No it doesn't. Remember, the keeper of the records certified the records as true and correct. And those records -- and who knows who entered the information thereon -- contain an entry that says "SUSPENDED". Also remember, they are saying these records pertain to YOU, so they will say YOU signed the license. The records are presumed correct, and that's all they need to secure a conviction. Argument will not win over evidence. Trust me, we've been there.

Therefore, I propose another approach: Correct the records.
Jethro!
Sui Juris Freeman
 
Posts: 1213
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:23 pm
Has thanked: 202 time
Have thanks: 168 time

Next

Return to Living and Survival

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron
suspicion-preferred