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W-4 Form

Any topic relate to Taxation, State, Federal etc.

Re: W-4 Form

Postby mertensv16 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:33 am

country_hick wrote:This would allow taxes to be figured out without the assistance of accountants except for businesses who have to figure out profits and losses which will always require going through the books.


This is the weakness of the "no deductions" policy -- businesses, whether conducted as sole proprietorships, partnerships, or corporations, will always need to deduct certain expenses.
Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest. "Tax protesters" have convinced themselves that wages are not income, that only gold is money, that the Sixteenth Amendment is unconstitutional, and so on. These beliefs all lead--so tax protesters think--to the elimination of their obligation to pay taxes. The government may not prohibit the holding of these beliefs, but it may penalize people who act on them. Coleman v. Commissioner, 791 F.2d 68 (7th Cir. 1986)
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Re: W-4 Form

Postby country_hick » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:03 am

Business income is defined as profit minus expenses. Business expenses such as rent, labor, electricity, inventory, and equipment would still be written off. Those are expenses required to gain profits. If a business (sole proprietorship) spends $300k this year on all expenses (major equipment and real estate purchases) and makes $325k this year their taxable income would be $25k. Next year if they buy nothing the taxes on the entire $300k or the actual amount they earn that year. When inventory or old equipment is sold that would almost always be considered to be legal profit unless disposal costs are involved as the original expense for the purchase was already written off. Buy a truck for $65k cash write it off as an expense. Lease the truck or make monthly payments deduct that yearly cost. Sell that same truck for $4k many years later would result in a taxable profit on the $4k sales price.

Real estate might sell for more or less than purchase price. As the entire original price was written off in previous years as an expense the entire sale price would be considered to be a taxable profit the year it is sold. Actual (not paper) losses should be carried forward to future tax years.

Yes, accounting gimmicks can reduce apparent income for awhile. Playing with the numbers may gain a very few years breathing room but then it catches up. Lower true income does not matter as paperwork income (such as exaggerated inventory levels) catches up and paying taxes can not be avoided.
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Re: W-4 Form

Postby Jethro! » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:11 am

country_hick wrote:My ideal tax scheme would be doable on a postcard. How much money did you make?

Any purported tax scheme that begins with "how much did you make?" presumes complete, absolute 100% ownership of and sovereignty over the fruits of your labors. They're just magnanimous enough to let you keep some (maybe even most - wow!) of your earnings. VP Al Gore even "confessed" to this presumption once upon a time.

However, since governments are only instituted to protect the rights and property of man and has no sovereignty over the same, such a taxing scheme cannot exist (and doesn't).
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Re: W-4 Form

Postby mertensv16 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:25 am

country_hick wrote:If a business (sole proprietorship) spends $300k this year on all expenses (major equipment and real estate purchases) and makes $325k this year their taxable income would be $25k. Next year if they buy nothing the taxes on the entire $300k or the actual amount they earn that year. When inventory or old equipment is sold that would almost always be considered to be legal profit unless disposal costs are involved as the original expense for the purchase was already written off.


This is way more generous than current tax law, which limits the deduction for most purchased equipment to the lesser of the taxable income of the business or $500,000. Any excess is depreciated over time. In addition, as a general rule one cannot deduct or depreciate the cost of raw land. But by allowing a current deduction for the cost of an asset with an extended useful life, you are effectively allowing a deduction for economic costs that have not yet been incurred.
Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest. "Tax protesters" have convinced themselves that wages are not income, that only gold is money, that the Sixteenth Amendment is unconstitutional, and so on. These beliefs all lead--so tax protesters think--to the elimination of their obligation to pay taxes. The government may not prohibit the holding of these beliefs, but it may penalize people who act on them. Coleman v. Commissioner, 791 F.2d 68 (7th Cir. 1986)
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Re: W-4 Form

Postby BOBT12 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:35 am

By the way, how does this sort of business tax require the use of a IRS Form W-4? Just a friendly attempt to see how it relates to the topic, gentle members.
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Re: W-4 Form

Postby imo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:22 pm

Jethro! wrote:If you have a job that pays $10/hr., you get $10/hr. Anything less is at minimum, a breach of contract… Unless there is a voluntarily executed *agreement* to withhold some because *you* anticipate some sort of a tax liability. How nice of the "employer" to do that for you! But only if there's an agreement to that effect. Otherwise $10/hr. means $10/hr.


We all know the employer doesn't need an agreement to withhold. They do, however, need an SSN. Most of us do not have the time or resources to argue the burden. The employer wants to hire you and the first thing you want to do is argue with them? They might hire you without an SSN but only under the condition that you produce one within a certain time frame. If, within that certain time frame you don't produce one, they will let you go. With the SSN, come all taxes.

And the job offer (contract for wages) never includes providing a W-4 form or SSN. So there are two kinds of wages: Wages that you contracted for and IRC wages. IRC wages kick in when you provide the W-4.
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Re: W-4 Form

Postby Jethro! » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:56 pm

imo wrote:
Jethro! wrote:If you have a job that pays $10/hr., you get $10/hr. Anything less is at minimum, a breach of contract… Unless there is a voluntarily executed *agreement* to withhold some because *you* anticipate some sort of a tax liability. How nice of the "employer" to do that for you! But only if there's an agreement to that effect. Otherwise $10/hr. means $10/hr.


We all know the employer doesn't need an agreement to withhold.

We do? Then by what mechanism does the "employer" withhold?

imo wrote:They do, however, need an SSN. Most of us do not have the time or resources to argue the burden. The employer wants to hire you and the first thing you want to do is argue with them? They might hire you without an SSN but only under the condition that you produce one within a certain time frame. If, within that certain time frame you don't produce one, they will let you go. With the SSN, come all taxes.

If they want a SSN so badly, why don't they sign the SSN application form and take the liability?? Wait what's that, they don't want the liability? Oops. Can't have it both ways, folks.
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Re: W-4 Form

Postby imo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:07 pm

We do? Then by what mechanism does the "employer" withhold?


Yes, we all know the employer doesn't need an agreement to withhold. The mechanism to withhold is the SSN (a/k/a Tax I.D. #)
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Re: W-4 Form

Postby BOBT12 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:05 pm

imo wrote:
We do? Then by what mechanism does the "employer" withhold?


Yes, we all know the employer doesn't need an agreement to withhold. The mechanism to withhold is the SSN (a/k/a Tax I.D. #)
No we do not all know it. Every company and organization, such as ADP, that deals with payroll needs to have a IRS Form W-4 on file in order to withhold federal taxes. I have no idea of what you are speaking about.
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."-- Thomas Jefferson

”The principles contained in the Declaration of Independence are saving principles. Stand by those principles; be true to them on all occasions, in all places, against all foes, and at whatever cost.” –Frederick Douglass.

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun."- Patrick Henry

"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."- William Penn;Thomas Jefferson's personal seal, attributed to the judges who executed King Charles I for crimes against the people.

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Re: W-4 Form

Postby imo » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:06 am

No we do not all know it. Every company and organization, such as ADP, that deals with payroll needs to have a IRS Form W-4 on file in order to withhold federal taxes. I have no idea of what you are speaking about.



Then maybe you should find out for yourself what happens when you refuse to submit one. They will take the SSN they already have on file for you and use that as the mechanism to withhold.
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